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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:00:36
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S asked me about this one a few months back - and it is always with a deep breath and fingers crossed I publish this sort of stuff
(coz if we were honest Fiat's quality control did not track all the attributes of all the batches of production engines, head cams and valves so reliably that they or we can tell...)
Anyhow at a conference some years ago everyone in the industry got their heads down and came up with a set of very educated guesses.... and these were amongst the results:
The question is what sort of Fuel will the engine tolerate?
"From original start" means it was ok from the first model to use this grade of fuel", "No" means it is not...
Now I pray that the HTML code doesn't massacre the table..... the observant amongst you might note this provides a useful list of engine types too!.... so lets hope the dar n things stay in their columns on posting 
Car Model--Engine code --- Unleaded 98? ---- Unleaded 95? ----
126 ------------126 A 200----- From original start-----From original start
+++------------Other------------From 1991--------------From 1991
127------------127 A 000-------From original start-----NO
+++------------100 GL 000-----From original start-----From original start
+++------------100 GL 046-----From original start-----From original start
+++------------Other------------From 1991--------------From 1991
131-------------131 C 000------From original start-----From original start
+++------------131 C 1000-----From original start-----NO
+++------------131 C 2000-----From original start-----NO
+++------------131 C 3000-----From original start-----NO
+++------------131 C 4000-----From original start-----NO
+++------------131 A 1000-----From original start-----NO
+++------------Other------------From 1991---------------From 1991
132------132A 000/132C 000---From original start----NO
+++-----132B 000/132B 1000--From original start----NO
+++----132A 1000/132C2000--From original start----NO
+++------------132 C 3000-------From original start----From original start
+++------------Other--------------From 1991-------------From 1991
ARGENTA----132D000/132D1000-From original start----NO
+++---------132 C 3000-----------From original start----From original start
+++---------Other------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
CROMA------154A 048/154C 000-From original start----From original start
+++--------154AC 000/154A 2000-From original start----From original start
+++----------154 C 2000----------From original start----From original start
+++----------Other------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
PANDA------146 A 000--------------From original start----From original start
+++---------A 112 B 1054---------From original start----From 1990
+++---------156 A 4000------------From original start----From original start
+++---------156 A 2000------------From original start----From 1990
+++---------156 A 3000------------From original start----From 1990
+++---------141 B 000-------------From original start-----From original start
+++---------100 GL 3000----------From original start-----From original start
+++---------100 GL 6000----------From original start-----From original start
+++---------Other-------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
REGATA-----149A4000/149C3000-From original start----NO
+++---------149 A 2000------------From original start----NO
+++---------1149 C 3000----------From original start----From original start
+++---------138 B 2000------------From original start----NO
+++---------149A7000/149A 000-From original start----NO
+++---------Other-------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
RITMO-----138A2000/138A000---From original start----NO
+++---------127A6000/138A1000-From original start----NO
+++---------149A7000/138A3000-From original start----NO
+++---------127 A 4000-------------From original start----NO
+++---------138B3000/138AR000-From original start----NO
+++---------138B000/138B 2000--From original start----NO
+++---------149A4048/146A4048-From original start ----NO
+++---------Other--------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
TEMPRA
All versions All types From original start From original start
TIPO
All versions All types From original start From original start
UNO--------146 A 000--------------From original start----From original start
+++---------156 A 2000------------From original start----From 1990
+++---------146 A 4048------------From original start----From 1990
+++---------138 B 000 ------------From original start----From 1990
+++---------138 B 2000------------From original start----From 1990
+++---------149 A 7000------------From original start----From 1990
+++---------146 A 048 -------------From original start----From original start
+++---------160A3000/146B1000-From original start----From original start
+++---------146 A 8000------------From original start----From original start
+++---------160 C 1000------------From original start----From original start
Others------Other-------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
X 1/9--------128 AS 000-----------From original start-----From original start
+++---------138 AS 000------------From original start----From original start
+++---------Other--------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
BARCHETTA
All versions All types From original start From original start
BRAVA
All versions All types From original start From original start
BRAVO
All versions All types From original start From original start
CINQUECENTO
All versions All types From original start From original start
COUPE
All versions All types From original start From original start
MAREA
All versions All types From original start From original start
PUNTO
All versions All types From original start From original start
ULYSSE
All versions All types From original start From original start
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Martin
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sumplug
Moderator
United Kingdom
5112 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:09:44
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very interesting M.
As far as i am aware,all twinks from the very first can in theory run unleaded due to hardened seats fitted as standard[good engineering practice]. i also think all 128/X19/RITMO can also !? |
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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:03:52
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Yes I know we had a chat about this before - I interpret these findings as conservative - in other words there are definitely no grey areas here, I should link to our original chat - because if it was intended for the US or certain Americas export, or if it had a high compression engine (performance valve seats) or even if they had run out of the softer valve seat material and use the hard instead, or it was considered an upmarket car, or had a turbo, then it is almost certainly alright anyway...
This list is what Fiat would support in private to their industry peers (even if the information was given unattributed)....
it may not be valve seats that are causing a NO on Unleaded 95, they might know something about the carbs or ignition or detonation values/ chamber temparatures that are causing doubts....
There's also the point that it will only advance wear heavily at high revs (if it is valve seats).... so you may get a 15 or 25% reduction in valve seat life anyway. Most owners wouldn't notice until something else happened....or in something like the Coupe they don't even notice when they are forced to have a partial re build before 100k miles coz they haven't put oil in! (ie That instance is much worse than using unleaded.)
But I use it to check engine numbers too. |
Martin
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sumplug
Moderator
United Kingdom
5112 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:09:34
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| throughout the industry we get the same duff info from manufactures.only when heads come off engines do you sometimes know if hardened seats were factory fitted.didn't the AA or RAC produce a booklet containing more accurate info.surely all alloy heads need harder seats to work? |
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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:15:36
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yes I know - I think the Government did - and certainly some work in the colonies (like Hong Kong) was undertaken.... but I'll repeat it may not only be the valve seats they are thinking of.
I think the most revealing is the Ritmo table - they are saying not to use 95 unleaded on ALL the Ritmos!! I think that reveals something of their thinking - coz on the 130TC for instance, I have NEVER seen an example of valve seat problems/ valve recession due to fuel (must have seen inside 40 or 50 used Ritmo heads)..
This has got to be a detonation fear not a valve seat fear.... as they are saying 98 unleaded is fine for them all.
Or another way of looking at this information is to say - if you are in doubt Fiat say use 98 unleaded and you will be safe! |
Martin
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sumplug
Moderator
United Kingdom
5112 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:22:59
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hello M.
you have altered your post to the one originally put out.so some what i said is not relevent.what you say is true.there are many things that will prevent engines running unleaded.it would be nice if the real truth came out though!!! |
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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:31:50
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Yes S the _(*^*%" table did collapse so I went back in to edit it.... sorry.
Also I assume the reference to 1991 is to Brazilian/ Turkish and other South American production versions of the engines (that they put under "other"). |
Martin
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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 17:46:45
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Just for interest here is the Autobianchi information (same source)
Car Model--Engine code --- Unleaded 98? ---- Unleaded 95? ----
A 112
A 112----A112A000/A112A500--From original start---From original start
Junior----A112A5000--------------From original start---From original start
Elegant---A112B1000-------------From original start----NO
Elite-------A112B1000-------------From original start----NO
5.0---------A112B1000------------From original start----NO
Other------Other--------------------From 1991-------------From 1991
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Martin
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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 18:00:23
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| No Ferraris or Maseratis but they do Porsche, Alfa and Lancia...... |
Martin
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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:22:05
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Reminder on fuel - one for DL and two others at Combe today....
We were talking about toleration of unleaded super unleaded fuel....
it could be sub titled - if in doubt for eighties Fiats then use super unleaded 98 octane,,,,, |
Martin
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sumplug
Moderator
United Kingdom
5112 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 23:44:58
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| having spoken to some classic lads,there seems to be no problem with fiat engines using unleaded.but i would use super unleaded and if the compression is above say 9:5-1 ,use a octane booster. |
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Martin
Administrator
United Kingdom
5718 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 11:50:16
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Yep |S, I'll repeat the table is actually from Fiat - although unattributed...
all we can say is there is something worrying Fiat about unleaded 95... in certain conditions, certain uses over the entire life of the engine.... something is non normal as far as they are concerned.
Without more information we simply can't judge why they rate this as a "no". It may be marginal... so if you're towing a caravan up an Alpine pass flat out, or taking taking the Ritmo around a Monte Carlo rally stage, or an a track day.... or that the chamber temparatures can melt the piston top on a long high speed run.... or that the valve life is reduced by 25%... we simply don't know! |
Martin
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sumplug
Moderator
United Kingdom
5112 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 12:12:18
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are you having problems with your computer again?
the 130 abarth is able to run unleaded.does not say what octane though! the 8V twinks and S.O.H.C are very strong engines.perhaps you are right about being marginal.
(re: pc - think the site Provider keeps crashing and re loading their system - so I keep getting my postings mucked about with. The site goes down for a few seconds - its been happening all this week) |
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julian
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
2834 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:18:56
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Basically the rule is that if it has an aly head then it is ok for unleaded. All of the information from Fiat though contains caveats - they are obviously not 100% confident in the situation but having really thrashed an X1/9 around on 95 unleaded for a few years (and who knows how many more before I bought it) I could find no signs of damage other than that inflicted by a failed waterpump leading to a blown headgasket. I think this is much more likely to be a legal get-out clause for the rare occasions where a claim might be made against them.
If in doubt use super unleaded as it helps to prevent pre-ignition and associated high temperature damage. Severe load situations are likely to damage an engine regardless of its suitability for unleaded fuel so I do not believe there is any point in wasting time and effort trying to establish if this is the limits of survivability.
What really worries me is the plethora of companies that claimed to be able to perform an unleaded conversion (including head work to replace the valve seats) when all the engines just needed a tweak to the ignition timing! |
1998 Seicento 600M - extreme version
2000 Ford Explorer LPG'd up but well and truely f****d
1978 Replica Icsunonove w/Uno Turbo power (250bhp+ and 600kg)
2009 Abarth 500 |
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sumplug
Moderator
United Kingdom
5112 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:47:40
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| YEP.. these same companies insert new seats,and a few thousand miles down the road,the seat drops out!! ive seen this on a couple of engines!! so much for expert engineering!!. |
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Fuel type on early models - engine codes
